tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post679036455650517982..comments2024-02-24T12:12:53.249-05:00Comments on Catholic in Brooklyn: The Spiritual Dilemma of Divorce and RemarriageCatholic in Brooklynhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-87882718926498196802014-05-28T02:06:13.715-04:002014-05-28T02:06:13.715-04:00>I personally don't see how any change can ...>I personally don't see how any change can be made to Canon law to somehow accommodate invalid second marriages. <br /><br />I remember reading somewhere(I believe it was THIS ROCK magazine) The Church could make annulments very easy if she changed the presumption and burden of proof in a marriage tribunal.<br /><br />When the validity of a marriage is disputed the Church assumes the marriage in question is valid till proven invalid. There is no dogmatic reason why She could not presume them invalid when formally disputed to be proven valid. In these cases it would be much easier to obtain annulments. Of course the down side is on the practical level even thought the Church would still formally be holding to the dogma of the indissolubility of marriage she would practically act like any Protestant denomination that allows divorce as few marriages would be proven valid and few annulments denied.<br /><br />I personally think it would be a very bad idea. But it wouldn't be technically heretical. Much like if the Pope did away with mandatory clerical celibacy for Latin Rite Priests or in the case where Pope St John Paul II allowed altar girls. It can be done but it is likely a bad idea.<br /><br />Note even thought I am more sympathetic to Traditionalism these days & believe with them the Church is not infallible in Her pastoral policies I don't pretend to believe my solutions or preferences are better in any degree of certainty beyond my mere prudent judgement.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-65497746211128472662014-05-28T02:04:31.166-04:002014-05-28T02:04:31.166-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-47721297747328023552014-05-28T01:47:48.171-04:002014-05-28T01:47:48.171-04:00>[B]y what right does the cardinal casually tel...>[B]y what right does the cardinal casually tell laity that 50% of their marriages are invalid—even if the pope did say it?? Does turmoil among married persons in the wake of such a remark not matter to any except those who suffer it? <br /><br />This guy is a canon lawyer? Yeh if you marry in the Church, stay together and intend to stay together we pretty much presume your marriage was valid. A lack of validity is only an issue if two people separate. Geez I’m not a canon lawyer & I can figure this out!<br /><br />Obviously the statement is meant to reflect the poor religious instruction we get on marriage these and how easy it might be for half the people who get married to plead defective intent as grounds for an annulment. <br /><br />This isn't hard.<br /><br />Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-52418791706261598852014-05-19T19:48:06.532-04:002014-05-19T19:48:06.532-04:00Eufrosnia
I beg to differ with on that. However, I...Eufrosnia<br />I beg to differ with on that. However, I do qualify myself as that I am not a Canon Lawyer or in any way an expert in Annulments.<br />If a spouse is abusive and controlling to the detriment of the other spouse, that is not why God gave us Marriage for. He gave it to us for the mutual support and dignity of both husband and wife. <br />So, an abusive and controlling spouse can invalidated a marriage. I emphasize the word "can" as I am not qualified to sit on a Marriage Tribunal; I am assuming that you are not either. If you are a Canon Lawyer, please excuse my assumption.<br />I would also like to say that while I do not think that Cardinal Kasper is not wrong in this matter, however I do not wholeheartedly agree with the seemingly blanket application of mercy and forgiveness he is advocating or at least I do not see how it could applied in the way his Eminence is advocating without changing Church teaching. <br />Nonetheless, I have confidence in Holy Mother Church and the Magisterium and most of all the protection of the Holy Spirit in this matter.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16438975605937602658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-14938724583927413622014-05-19T14:27:29.174-04:002014-05-19T14:27:29.174-04:00I look to the Orthodox Churches for some guidance ...I look to the Orthodox Churches for some guidance here. Divorce and remarriage are permitted in the East, but the second marriages are quiet. Everyone realizes that the situation is less than ideal, and they ask forgiveness.<br /><br />This may be an issue, because forgiveness in a lot of contexts isn't a Catholic thing.FranktheMchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07854333546065336430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-57847820271967466892014-05-17T13:31:00.398-04:002014-05-17T13:31:00.398-04:00If you read my post a little more closely, you wil...If you read my post a little more closely, you will see that I am not taking a stance, but merely sharing what I called a "stream of consciousness." I know there are millions of Catholics who right now do not have access to the sacraments, and it is important to minister to them in some way. Is the answer to tell them that they have to break up their families and leave their spouses? I don't know. It's possible that is the only answer. But I think it is very important that this issue be explored in some way. <br /><br />If it is possible for Cardinal Kasper to be wrong, then it is possible that other cardinals who are criticizing him are wrong. That is why I say we need to take this matter up in prayer and ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I am sorry that makes you so angry. Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-81235926913705064992014-05-17T13:22:39.471-04:002014-05-17T13:22:39.471-04:00Oh and you would do well to observe that many Card...Oh and you would do well to observe that many Cardinals have already made it clear why Cardinal Kasper is WRONG. So instead of trying to make him out to be a hero, perhaps you should give him the rightful honor of being the villain. But hey, I am sure you have a "Divine Mercy" passage for that from the diary of St. Faustina ;)Eufrosniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15111736255529574527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-43913008731543254342014-05-17T13:20:54.020-04:002014-05-17T13:20:54.020-04:00Just a FYI,
A marriage is not invalidated by an a...Just a FYI,<br /><br />A marriage is not invalidated by an abusive and controlling husband. I think you should correct such misunderstandings you might personally have and then approach such complicated topics. <br /><br />Just saying... Because at the end of the day, articles like yours can make Catholics think that they are legitimate in holding on to a desire that the Church change her stance. Eufrosniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15111736255529574527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-47346986535498353222014-05-14T14:10:06.813-04:002014-05-14T14:10:06.813-04:00Yes, my feelings exactly. I personally don't...Yes, my feelings exactly. I personally don't see how any change can be made to Canon law to somehow accommodate invalid second marriages. But I also think that it is still important for the church to look closely at this issue because so many millions are involved. <br /><br />I believe also that many of these people knew they were going against Church teaching when they remarried. I can think of one situation of a Catholic couple in which both were entering into their second marriage. The woman's first marriage was almost definitely invalid in that her husband turned out to be very abusive and controlling and didn't even want her to see her own family. Yet, the couple had no desire to go through any kind of annulment process. They moved in together before marriage, she got pregnant, and they had a civil ceremony. No surprise, they never go to Church. Their souls are most definitely in danger, and I believe they are among the lost sheep which the Church needs to seek out. <br /><br />Cardinal Kasper has an interesting statement in his book defining "pseduomercy":<br /><br />"The failure of theological reflection concerning the message of mercy, which is central to the Bible, has allowed this concept often to be downgraded, degenerating into a "soft" spirituality or a vapid pastoral concern, lacking clear definition and forced somehow to suit each individual. Such a soft praxis may be understandable to a certain degree as a reaction against a ruthlessly rigid, legalistic praxis. <b>But mercy become pseudomercy when it no longer has a trace of trembling before God, who is holy, and trembling before his justice and his judgment. It becomes pseudomercy when "yes" is no longer a "yes" and "no" is no longer a "no"; when it does not exceed, but rather undercuts the demand for justice. The gospel teaches the justification of the sinner, but not the justification of the sin. For this reason, we should love the sinner, but hate the sin.</b>"<br /><br />That statement gives me a lot of hope for the upcoming Synod. I believe this will be the guiding force at the Synod so that whatever results, we can be sure it is the result of the working of the Holy Spirit.<br /><br />Whether others in the Church will feel that way, that will be another story.Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-89015592241491242492014-05-14T12:32:16.207-04:002014-05-14T12:32:16.207-04:00It is a monumental issue, no doubt about it.
Howe...It is a monumental issue, no doubt about it. <br />However, I am not trying to be hard hearted about our brother and sister in this sad circumstance. Most on what I basing my position on is certain facts of Canon Law.<br />First, let me quantify I am not a Canonist in any sense of the word.<br />That being said, one of the conditions for a Catholic marriage to be valid is that it is recognized to be a lifelong union at the time of the wedding by both spouses. Therefore, under this circumstance, these Catholics knew the error they where committing at the time of their divorce and remarriage. However, this goes both ways. If one or both spouse did not recognized marriage to a lifelong union at the time of the wedding and they are are willing to swear to that fact, then Bob's your uncle.<br />Additionally, there are tons of valid reasons that a marriage could be found to be invalid. Abuse, adultery, deceit, even a football widow could make a case for annulment. <br />The biggest point I am making is about that focus on Eucharist and not on Reconciliation and I think an even bigger issue is being overlooked. Salvation. I do not believe any reasonable person could say that God does not have a plan for the Salvation for our divorced and remarried Catholic brother and sisters, not more than He does not have a plan for the Salvation for our protestant brethren who are in schism from Holy Mother Church.<br />Divorced and remarried Catholics have certainly placed themselves in a very emotional and spiritual painful situation. However, in this pain, they can find atonement, and in many ways it would be better to atone for something like this in life rather than in the hereafter. <br />Or at least, that would be my preference.<br />Nonetheless, we pray for wisdom of the Holy Spirit for the upcoming Bishop’s Synod of Family this October and put our faith in the Magisterium of our Church to correctly lead the faithful unto Heaven. Lord hear our prayer.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16438975605937602658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-50409962164256542922014-05-13T19:37:27.815-04:002014-05-13T19:37:27.815-04:00Thank you so much for your perspective on this. I...Thank you so much for your perspective on this. I think this is one of the most difficult issues in the church today. In some ways it seems so cut and dried. Marriage is for life, and if you walk away from your marriage, then you must remain celibate for the rest of your life or until the death of your spouse. The problem is, we now have millions of Catholics who have remarried and are now in invalid marriages that can never be recognized. You, Mr. Clark, were able to get an annulment, but what about those whose first marriage is valid, and therefore cannot get an annulment? Confessing this sin is not enough. They must leave their current spouses, which will create great emotional trauma on all involved, especially children. <br /><br />But how does the Church say, yes you are living in sin, but somehow we are going to overlook it? That just doesn't seem possible. Truly this will take Holy Spirit to give us the answer. <br /><br />I don't know if you have read Cardinal Kasper's book on mercy. I just got it and have only just begun reading it. But I think the position he has taken on divorce and remarriage, and probably on most other issues, comes from his understanding of Divine Mercy. At one one point, Cardinal Kasper talks about Pope St. John Paul II's encyclical on mercy, "Dives in Misericordia"' and the Cardinal writes, "the pope reminded us that justice alone is not sufficient, for summa iustitia can also be summa iniustitia." My understanding of this is basically "justice can also be the most extreme injustice." I think it is this understanding which is driving Cardinal Kasper. We need to determine if the Cardinal is being inspired by the Holy Spirit, or does he have a wrong understanding of mercy. <br /><br />I hope to do a post on the Cardinal's book when I finish it. Maybe his book will shed some light on all of this. Pope Francis has said that he has been influenced by this book, so I think it is even more important for us to read it. Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-6467577239643728452014-05-13T17:20:08.744-04:002014-05-13T17:20:08.744-04:00Being myself a divorced and remarried Catholic I h...Being myself a divorced and remarried Catholic I have a lot of passion on this subject. On the one hand I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for Catholics that are not in Communion with the Church and thusly denied the Sacraments. However, I also have probably less patience than I should with their complaint, because this is in many ways the just fruits that themselves have sown.<br /> To explain my personal predicament, I was raised and baptized in a protestant faith. I left that faith as a young teenager. I got married as a young adult, divorced 5 years later. Something like 35 years later I converted and was confirmed in the true Faith and was later married a woman who is also Catholic. For immigration reasons, my wife and I had to get married before my Annulment came through. My Annulment took 2 years and a day. My wife and I spent a year and a week without the Sacraments. My wife and I accepted this period of being out of Communion with the Church with contrition as mortification. It was a painful, yet purifying experience. Also, in many ways by accepting that we were bound to refrain from Communion, we showed, I believe, a greater fidelity to Christ and to His Church.<br /> I think the main reason I believe that I might be less than generous with other divorced and remarried Catholics, even though I am one of their number, is that I was protestant and came from a family where my mother, my aunt, and uncles all were divorced and remarried. Therefore, I did not know better. However, I do not believe this sort of latitude should be accorded the average cradle Catholic. I believe that it is rather well known that the Catholic Church has always maintained that marriage is for life.<br /> That being said, there are a multitude of valid reasons that a Catholic marriage could and should be annulled. All it takes is a lot of red tape and a few years.<br />This morning at Lauds, the canticle from the Psalter was Azariah’s prayer from the furnace from the Book of Daniel: <br /><br />Blessed are you, and praiseworthy, O Lord, the God of our fathers, and glorious forever is your name.<br /><br />For you are just in all you have done; all your deeds are faultless, all your ways right, and all your judgments proper.<br /><br />For we have sinned and transgressed by departing from you, and we have done every kind of evil.<br /><br />For your name's sake, do not deliver us up forever, or make void your covenant.<br /><br />Do not take away your mercy from us, for the sake of Abraham, your beloved, Isaac your servant, and Israel your holy one,<br /><br />To whom you promised to multiply their offspring like the stars of heaven, or the sand on the shore of the sea.<br /><br />For we are reduced, O Lord, beyond any other nation, brought low everywhere in the world this day <br />because of our sins.<br /><br />We have in our day no prince, prophet, or leader, no holocaust, sacrifice, oblation, or incense, <br />no place to offer first fruits, to find favor with you.<br /><br />But with contrite heart and humble spirit let us be received; as though it were holocausts of rams and bullocks, or thousands of fat lambs, so let our sacrifice be in your presence today as we follow you unreservedly; for those who trust in you cannot be put to shame.<br /><br />And now we follow you with our whole heart, we fear you and we pray to you.<br /><br /> I believe that here Azariah is speaking to us with the same wisdom that our Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was speaking when while still Pope when he said that divorced and remarried Catholics could receive spiritual communion.<br /> In closing, I would like to say that I am a little bothered that the focus only seems to be on being denied the Sacrament of Eucharist and not on being denied the Sacrament of Reconciliation. While I am not saying that Eucharist is not the most important. It is most important because the Eucharist is the apex of our Faith. It is where we are going, to be physically united with Christ, but to get there we must work out our salvation and Reconciliation is the prime tool for that. This focus that I mentioned early seems to be backwards.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16438975605937602658noreply@blogger.com