tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post7217611610463070478..comments2024-03-28T19:16:02.689-04:00Comments on Catholic in Brooklyn: It is Time To Close All the Seminaries - Part 2Catholic in Brooklynhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-38344614701959222612018-09-21T19:51:22.614-04:002018-09-21T19:51:22.614-04:00I quoted from the Bible, I quoted from the Bible, Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-84567532454695183842018-09-21T19:32:34.684-04:002018-09-21T19:32:34.684-04:00"That is a whole lot of words, Dave, and the ..."That is a whole lot of words, Dave, and the main thing I get from all that is that you think sex is dirty. We are way off topic from my post, but just a few comments ..."<br /><br />No, the topic of rancid perverts running wild in the sanctuary because they have been positively selected for in seminary by higher level prelates equally depraved, is precisely the issue that confronts the Church.<br /><br />Remarkable too that I say that the notion of sexual union with God, is paganism, perversity, and an abomination, and what you get from that is that I think sex is dirty.<br /><br />Whereas what I get from your view is that you are engaging in the most profoundly sick kind of blasphemy by imputing a literal sense to a metaphor.<br /><br />No wonder the church is so sick, so wounded, so filled with wretched perversity ... You would have it a temple of Baal Ammon filled with Qadeshes if Rosica had his ways<br /><br />Yeah, I'm done too.NorthCharltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08119986105908182813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-61295995849468302902018-09-20T17:34:27.247-04:002018-09-20T17:34:27.247-04:00That is a whole lot of words, Dave, and the main t...That is a whole lot of words, Dave, and the main thing I get from all that is that you think sex is dirty. We are way off topic from my post, but just a few comments, <br /><br />The Bible plainly says that marriage pictures the relationship between Jesus and the Church, And St. Paul actually celebrates the marital act when he writes that the marriage bed is undefiled. Heb 13:4. Have you ever read the Song of Solomon? That is all about sexual love between a man and a woman. Of course, what it is really all about is Christ’s love for the Church. <br /><br />God created sex. It is a way for a husband and wife to literally become one, and from that union comes life. When we receive Christ in the Holy Eucharist, we spiritually become one with Him, and from that we receive the graces we need to bring others to Him. <br /><br />Fr. Rosica was absolutely correct when he said there is a sexual aspect to the Eucharist. As Fulton Sheen said, the marital act is a pale imitation of the Eucharist. <br /><br />Marital love is actually spiritual because it is a picture of God’s love for us. That is why sex should never be used in any other way. Sex in marriage is actually sacred, and to take it out of marriage is a sacrilege. <br /><br />I know you are never going to accept that Dave. So I am now done.Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-64841257812085676822018-09-20T14:16:48.827-04:002018-09-20T14:16:48.827-04:00"As far as comparing sex and Holy Communion, ..."As far as comparing sex and Holy Communion, here is what Ven. Fulton Sheen wrote ..."<br /><br />Even Sheen, or perhaps most especially Sheen in certain circumstances - this one in analogizing to the phases of the mass - lets his prose run purple; and on a cursory reading overshoots the mark.<br /><br />The book, "The Clean Oblation" describes the core of the mass sacrifice in rather more precise and less dramatic language. https://www.amazon.com/clean-oblation-Michael-D-Forrest/dp/B0007DUTWY<br /><br />That said, the operative word is not "identity" but "compare" here; as "compare", signifies the construction of an illustrative analogical framework, rather than an identity relation.<br /><br />And as turgid as Sheen waxes in comparing the 3 phases of the mass to the three phases of matrimony, it is clear that when describing generally he means to speak analogously, and when speaking specifically, he is speaking metaphysically or abstractly.<br /><br />This analogous use of language is made explicit in his very next choice of illustration: <br /><br />"The Sacrifice of the Mass may be presented under another analogy. Picture a house which had two large windows on opposite sides. One window looks down into a valley, the other to a towering mountain. The owner could gaze on both and somehow see that they were related: the valley is the mountain humbled; the mountain is the valley exalted.<br /><br />The Sacrifice of the Mass is something like that ..."<br /><br />"Another analogy" Sheen says.<br /><br />Now as for the notion of an "ek-static union" or some rather similar Neo Platonic (or even Gnostic) influenced principle of understanding as applied to what we call communion, that itself does not seem to appear in the Gospels, and Sheen's one supportive Gospel reference to a union, refers not to the Eucharist specifically, but to an affective union of aim and understanding.<br /><br />The perverts gone wild, on the other hand, were referring to a carnal act as actually constituting a sacramental facet (aspect) of an act of performance of Divine union. That is paganism of the kind the Old Testament prophets fought against. It is not Christian. It is not apostolic. It is an abomination. And if not of desolation, I don't know what else.<br /><br />Or, if it (this notion of an actual sexual union with the Divine) is not an abomination, it is because there is nothing really objectively abominable or good or evil; merely other and alien, found in a relativistic reality wherein moral sensibilities are merely accidents of physiological arrangements implying nothing more than a kind of moral/physical tautology. <br /><br />And if that is so, then we can forget all about nonsense like "oneness"; about "universal-ism in morals", about "like-kinds" taken as real categories, and about the silliness of genuine "charity as mercy": This latter, since it will follow that the other is truly, as far as the term "true" may be used, fundamentally alien, and antithetical to the core of its evolutionary being, to those who "feel" otherwise. We will constitute not like-kinds striving to live under a universal principle and capable of shared understandings, but live instead as different and antagonistic moral species ... right ... down ... to ... the evolutionary core.<br /><br />NorthCharltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08119986105908182813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-83296742951191302092018-09-20T12:47:32.174-04:002018-09-20T12:47:32.174-04:00You are certainly very intrellligent and articulat...You are certainly very intrellligent and articulate, Dave. I would actually agree with you on the possibility of the Church being hijacked by heretics, except that I believe Jesus Christ when He said the Gates of Hell will never prevail. The Catholic Church, while composed of sinful human beings, is a Divine Institution led by the Holy Spirit. Individuals can turn away from God, but the Church never will.<br /><br />As far as comparing sex and Holy Communion, here is what Ven. Fulton Sheen wrote:<br /><br />“The marital act is nothing but a fragile and shadowy image of Communion in which, after having offered ourselves under the appearance of bread and wine and having died to our lower self, we now begin to enjoy that ecstatic union with Christ in Holy Communion--a oneness which is, in the language of Thompson, "a passionless passion, a wild tranquility." This is the moment when the hungry heart communes with the Bread of Life; this is the rapture in which is fulfilled that "love we fall just short of in all love," and that rapture that leaves all other raptures pain.”<br /><br />https://basilica.ca/documents/2016/10/Fulton%20Sheen-These%20are%20the%20Sacraments.pdf#page34Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-44232272589008705122018-09-20T12:12:03.527-04:002018-09-20T12:12:03.527-04:00The Church has since the time it offered anything ...The Church has since the time it offered anything of a nesting place or relative social advantage or opportunity for anyone, been a spot which some opportunists would see as their main chance.<br /><br />That is certainly the case with innumerable homosexual males who have admitted just as much: that, they are attracted to the panoply and theatricality which they revel in for their own satisfactions, that the social cover it provides for the (barely) closeted suits them; and that they retain a notion that they don't intend to abide celibacy in any event.<br /><br />And yet, removing these mentally disarranged sex perverts - whose very life orientation is contrary the natural law an well as scripture - from the clergy, does not seem to be an interest of yours.<br /><br />Instead, you go on and on about love and mercy like some giddy antinomian; forgetting the context and the balancing of mercy which comes with Christ's jots and tittles. <br /><br />Love may cover a multitude of sins; but love of sin or its promotion, are not covered.<br /><br />Yet, the problem is that the "love" being preached, amounts in effect to a love of behavior which is intrinsically immoral, inherently disgusting, and anti-scriptural. It is a "love" which becomes a love of social suicide, and the love of a status quo which promotes those who engage in sexual degeneracy and prey upon the children. This is not a manifestation of grace and mercy, this is nihilism masquerading as charity.<br /><br />And your solution to a house of formation brimming with unwelcome, ungrateful, and destructive guests/pests, is to tear down the house.<br /><br />Nice going.<br /><br />When "someone" in the Church finally blurts out publicly a new-agey anti-dualistic, and inclusion promoting "integrative personality" concept noting that, "God made Satan too. Therefore ..." Then you will have some hard thinking to do.<br /><br />Some have already said as much in their own circles with their notion of the "conflictual nature of reality" and a re-figuring of the ideas of the relation between good and evil. What, if, or when, it becomes the "new paradigm".<br /><br />We are told openly and in overall context with the doctrines of the faith, that sex is eucharistic in the manner of holy communion; and by one of the Pope's mouthpieces, abominably, that holy communion has a sexual aspect to it. We also see homosexuals not fearing to carnally and perversely engage at the altar of God, already.<br /><br />What then, if they finally muster the courage, or arrogance, to put their 2 and 2 together openly, and a liturgy of abomination is authorized?<br /><br />We are halfway there right now.<br /><br />Who will you follow come what may, then, Brooklyn?NorthCharltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08119986105908182813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-81502312493254371582018-09-20T10:12:14.021-04:002018-09-20T10:12:14.021-04:00Did you read my post? I am not at all saying that...Did you read my post? I am not at all saying that the only problem with seminaries is homosexuality. Homosexuality is just one major consequence of what I feel is the real failure of seminaries. <br /><br />The problem with the seminaries is that they isolate those training for the priesthood from the real world. They are insulated in their own little world with very little contact with the people whom they will one day serve. The only ones they have any real contact with are each other and their teachers. <br /><br />This creates many problems, not the least of which is the feeling of being "special" and apart from the others, i.e., clericalism. Why do you think they have been so willing to cover for each other? Instead of bonding with the people they are suppose to be serving, they have bonded with each other. <br /><br />When Our Lord was in the garden, He prayed to the Father, "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." As Pope Francis has said, Our Lord wanted his disciples to have the smell of the sheep on them. But our seminarians rarely go anywhere near the sheep. When they are thrust into the real world upon ordination, they still have the academic mindset of a seminarian. Many never learn their real vocation: servant to the people of God. <br /><br />Have you been reading the accounts of sexual abuse in the Church throughout the world? These accounts are going all the way back to the 40's. The only reason they don't go further back is because both predators and victims are dead. Have you read of the terrible abuse in Ireland - both sexual and physical - which occurred 100 years ago and more? Have you heard of Archbishop Weakland? Ever hear of Cardinal McCarrick? These men, along with many other fallen priests and bishops, were all trained in seminaries before Vatican II. <br /><br />I mentioned my uncle. He was trained in seminary in the 40's and 50's. He was not gay, but he was still a very bad priest. He abused at least one young girl, and knowing him, probably many others. I know for a fact that he had a girl friend. Do you think he was an anomaly? <br /><br />You are not even 40 years old. How can you say with such certainty that things were so different "in the good old days"? As Father Groeschel use to say, "You were there?" <br /><br />Sexual abuse in our seminaries and churches has nothing to do with Vatican II. It is all about fallen human nature. As you yourself wrote, we have always had sinful priests. <br /><br />How can we possibly train our priests how to relate to people in the world by keeping them behind walls for 7 years, just occasionally letting them venture out among the rest of us? <br /><br />The Council of Trent made some bad decisions. Just one example is the Council Fathers forbade the laity to read or even own a Bible. Did you know that? <br /><br />We need to look at the devastation in the Church and try to figure out where we went wrong. And seminaries, as they are now structured, must be completely reformed. Open up the doors and let our seminarians live among the people whom they will one day serve. That is the only way they will learn their true vocation as servants. <br />Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-9631349538630761092018-09-20T09:23:44.931-04:002018-09-20T09:23:44.931-04:00For one, it is odd, to say the least, that based o...For one, it is odd, to say the least, that based on your focus on the issue, the only possible "scandal" in seminary is the homosexual sexual abuse. While no life is perfect, and seminaries never promised a life of perfect christian purity, it is odd to think that the seminaries themselves led to the crisis. Either you are sexually attracted to a person of the same sex or not. The people who did these things were not made homosexual in the seminary: they already were and were accepted. People with homosexual tendencies should never have been accepted in seminary - period. Seminaries do NOT make people gay or abusers.<br /><br />Minor seminaries were not the same as major seminaries. I'm getting the feeling that you do not get the difference. 12 year olds were not sitting together (or worse living together) with late teenagers. <br /><br />You cannot say that Vat II is not at fault based on your uncle's description. There were changes to seminary life and education, as well as to organization after Vatican II. That made a difference in the view and experiences of seminary life. It was more common to let active homosexuals into seminary AFTER Vatican II than before. It was common to let males who had no intention to lead a holy life AFTER Vatican II than before. It was common to kick out males who wanted to follow Jesus teachings, while letting those who had "an open mind" in seminary. The educational experience became more relaxed and less responsible, which led to the low level of education among seminarians now even AFTER 7-8 years in seminary. So, no, they do not SPEND their whole day, for all those years, in the classroom. If they did, so many priests would not have gotten is half the trouble they got into or caused.<br /><br />As per Dreher's example: I repeat, the seminary system they way in which it exists today IS NOT the same system that was in place before Vatican II.<br /><br />Permanent Deacons is a whole different matter. They have to remain where they are because they tend to be married and have families (which is not the ancient tradition of the Catholic Church). They tend to be older and have responsibilities that others do not have. <br /><br />Doing away with the seminary system will not solve the problem: it will not unmake perverts/abusers. There must be a change in the seminary system yes, but that does not entail doing away with the seminaries all together. <br /><br />Had the seminary system not worked, it would have been obvious right from the very beginning. It would not have been necessary to wait 500 years to find out.latinmass1983https://www.blogger.com/profile/18109855026898340656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-65424424816881262812018-09-19T17:54:00.523-04:002018-09-19T17:54:00.523-04:00Nice to hear from you, Eddy. It's been a long...Nice to hear from you, Eddy. It's been a long time. Hope you are well.<br /><br />Yes, it is absolutely true that there have always been sin and scandals among priests, just as there has been among the rest of us as well. Sin is as old as mankind. <br /><br />As far as to how long these scandals have been occurring in our seminaries, we don't know. For most of Church history, there was no instant communication as we have now. People were very isolated from one another and did not share stories and experiences as we do now. <br /><br />Yes, I am very glad there are not 12 year old boys in seminary any more. However, this was true right through at least the 60's. We can thank the changes that came post Vatican II that this is no longer true. <br /><br />You blame Vatican II for much of the scandals. But I can tell you that is not true. My uncle, a priest, went to seminary as a young boy back in the 40's, back when 12 year old boys were allowed in seminary. He was ordained in 1955. He says back then "they were all in love with one another." But of course, no one ever talked about it. <br /><br />Most men who attended seminary before the 1940's are dead. My uncle himself is almost 90 years old. So we have no one to tell us what seminary life was like in previous generations.<br /><br />You did not address the ex seminarian in Rod Dreher's article. Do you think he was lying when, as a result of his experiences, he said, "It is extremely difficult for the average lay Catholic to understand something that is at the heart of the present crisis: The seminary system as it now exists actually destroys vocations in many instances. The evidence is overwhelming."<br /><br />The purpose of seminary is to prepare priests to become shepherds of God's people. Do you think that sitting in a classroom for 7 years is the right way to do it? Don't you think it would be much better if they were living among the people they will one day serve? If we can do that with deacons, why can't we do that with priests? <br /><br />How is that incomplete, and how is that an irresponsible conclusion?<br /><br />Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-15207130786000038412018-09-19T13:49:27.681-04:002018-09-19T13:49:27.681-04:00These posts show a tremendous lack of knowledge ab...These posts show a tremendous lack of knowledge about seminaries, but especially about the sexual abuses perpetrated by Priests. Seminaries do not make people become gay and abuse people of the same sex -- seminaries are NOT prisons. Additionally, after 500 years, now these problems take place and the first thought is to blame seminary life? Really? The changes made in seminary life after Vatican II certainly weakened the level of alertness that used to be kept in seminaries, and not only with regards to sexual matters, but doctrinal and liturgical. Something that worked for 500 years doesn't just stop working from one day to the other just like that. You NEED to do far more research and actual reading of the differences in seminary life now compared to such life in the not so distant past. Furthermore, when was the last time (and with what frequency) you saw 12 year old going to seminary?<br /><br />Have you not see also that a lot of these abuses took place in parishes and schools? Are you also going to call for the elimination of parishes and schools? <br /><br />Moreover, when there were no seminaries, priests were still very sinful and scandalous. What would you blame that on once you realize that there were no seminaries then? <br /><br />These two posts are written in a very incomplete manner with a very irresponsible conclusion.latinmass1983https://www.blogger.com/profile/18109855026898340656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-51186296911479085642018-09-14T09:07:34.737-04:002018-09-14T09:07:34.737-04:00Thank you for asking that question to Akin, Christ...Thank you for asking that question to Akin, Christopher. And yes, I definitely hold my nose at his answer. No, it is not true that the only alternative to seminaries is one-on-one training. Isn’t Akin aware of how permanents deacons are trained? They continue to live in the real world and attend regular sessions over several years. There is no reason why we can’t train and teach our priests in the same way. <br /><br />Seminaries are not monasteries. These are not men who have made a commitment to completely devote their lives in prayer to God. Those in seminaries are for the most part very young men who barely know who they are. A good number drop out before taking their final promises. They need to keep living in the secular world until the day they make those final promises before God and man. Any other way is just not healthy. Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-40629490902496334622018-09-14T00:04:26.766-04:002018-09-14T00:04:26.766-04:00Catholic in Brooklyn, you might want to hold your ...Catholic in Brooklyn, you might want to hold your chose and check out the following URL:<br /><br />https://youtu.be/10bDDW12rK8?t=5m45sChristopher Stuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17477722106362926482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-53170927136348770682018-09-13T13:27:06.456-04:002018-09-13T13:27:06.456-04:00Michael Voris would not be the least interested in...Michael Voris would not be the least interested in this. The only thing he wants to do is throw out Church hierarchy. Voris is not interested in getting to the root of the problem. Has he ever once said "close the seminaries"? No, it's always, "throw out the bishops and cardinals." And now, of course, it's "throw out Pope Francis!"<br /><br />Please do not confuse me with Michael Voris. Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5636389828900724226.post-41709669700771556292018-09-13T13:15:37.812-04:002018-09-13T13:15:37.812-04:00Um, what would Michael Voris think of your idea, C...Um, what would Michael Voris think of your idea, Catholic in Brooklyn?<br /><br />Speaking of Voris, hold your nose and go to the following URL:<br /><br />https://youtu.be/oUEGxTi5CcEChristopher Stuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17477722106362926482noreply@blogger.com